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Post by rabbitrabbit on Jun 23, 2012 13:53:37 GMT -5
nikki and juniemoon I read the NPR article and rebuttal earlier, but need to reread it. This part in David's response was especially compelling to me: ----------------- "The existential questions that your generation gets to answer are these: Why do we value the network and hardware that delivers music but not the music itself? Why are we willing to pay for computers, iPods, smartphones, data plans, and high speed internet access but not the music itself? Why do we gladly give our money to some of the largest richest corporations in the world but not the companies and individuals who create and sell music? This is a bit of hyperbole to emphasize the point. But it’s as if: Networks: Giant mega corporations. Cool! have some money! Hardware: Giant mega corporations. Cool! have some money! Artists: 99.9 % lower middle class. Screw you, you greedy bastards! Congratulations, your generation is the first generation in history to rebel by unsticking it to the man and instead sticking it to the weirdo freak musicians!"--------------------- It's also very interesting to me that among the group he's particularly addressing (the NPR intern, hipster, socially conscious, creative young) people are often very aware of where their veggies come from, and buying fair trade coffee, and supporting local business, and cutting down carbon emissions by biking and various other ethics-based behaviors that can require much more individual effort and sometimes monetary output (eating organic) than for example paying for itunes downloads.
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Holst
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Post by Holst on Jun 23, 2012 15:18:21 GMT -5
Why do we value the network and hardware that delivers music but not the music itself? Why are we willing to pay for computers, iPods, smartphones, data plans, and high speed internet access but not the music itself? Why do we gladly give our money to some of the largest richest corporations in the world but not the companies and individuals who create and sell music?These are really good questions. The only answer I can come up with is because music "piracy" is so easy, so convenient. I'm not sure it has as much to do with money as with convenience (obviously some people can't afford all the music they would wish for). Regarding the bold statement, to me, it's similar to why our society insists on paying public servants (teachers, police, fire fighters, etc.) fairly low wages. Most American claim that these are highly valuable professions, yet don't want to pay much for the service. On the other hand, many are willing to go deep into debt for expensive cars, new computers, phones, etc. (which makes our businesses wealthy) without flinching. Same with music: we have a society that seems almost obsessed with music and artists, but we aren't willing to spend money on it. Junie, said: "I have multiple copies of Trespassing that I give away to people, which is one way I like to support him. The other day I gave a copy to a lovely guy in his late 20's that regularly makes me my morning coffee. We chat frequently about the dance clubs he also works in. He already likes Adam but didn't know his new CD was out. As soon as I gave him the CD, he immediately put it on the cafe's sound system. By the end of Shady, he'd made arrangements with 2 of the other staff to download the disc to their PCs. It puts into perspective the effort needed now to really get a "sale".' The speed at which people copy music is astounding--because it is so easy. The CD itself is getting obsolete, as we know. I'm still trying to purchase things I want (usually online), but we are a dying breed. As a music teacher, I have watched the evolving technology via my students. It used to be that I gave chorus students recordings of me singing their part on cassette tapes so they could practice at home. Eventually that changed to CDs (no one had a way to listen to tapes). Now, I have kids download their practice tracks from a web location. A few kids will need to burn CDs to take home if they don't have a computer at home or iPod. However, a number of families no longer have a way to play physical CDs anymore other than a computer. I haven't really said anything profound here. It's just what I mull over in my mind. Mika, sorry about your reaction to my blank "bump" posts. I just couldn't bare trying to read another of these really good, but long, posts and having to scroll sideways on each line (and long line lengths are harder to read anyway). It was interfering with my comprehension. I guess that's my OCD.  We'll be on another page before we know it, and you'll never have to look at the blank posts again. Thanks for all the lovely words you write.  |
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mika
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Post by mika on Jun 23, 2012 16:55:45 GMT -5
Prev. deleted: Thanks to our kind Mod for tidying us up.
Nica -- thanks much for deleting image - but your gorgeous Tiger made a lovely header - I hope you repost him. I am very not tech savvy but can tell you how I resize. (I edit images haphazardly (guessing at pixel size) saved under pictures in my pc before going to tinypic to upload, but I know more competent people go about it a more elegant way.)
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mika
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Post by mika on Jun 23, 2012 22:12:38 GMT -5
I think that some of the angrier responses to the NPR and Trichordist posts that boil down to 'damned selfish kids today got no values' are powered by something other than concern for musicians/artists. Maybe whatever makes us always want to denounce the upcoming generation as self-absorbed. (And frankly coming from what I assume is largely a combo of Boomers and Gen-X (incl me), are we really in a position of generational moral superiority? Personally, I doubt it.) To be clear, I think David Lowery is a brilliant, kind man who always includes a few self-deprecating, humorous comments acknowledging that things look much different to him from this end of the age and profession spectrum. I have no issue with his rebuttal article -(well one serious quibble about something I thought was inappropriate but I've taken that up with him directly). He mostly went out of his way to speak to the young woman (and indirectly her fellow younglings) in a non-judgmental way. The same was not true of many comments that followed the sites of both articles. (Honestly, in the comments, I also think there's a touch of vitriol there tied less to her opinion and more to the hostility sparked by a - a) young; b) presumably privileged/educated; c) woman/girl. ) When I read the article, I was actually startled that (overwhelmingly) she hadn't gotten her library from illegal downloads. She got them from: - her family's music collection - swapping mixed cds - some live show downloads from a boyfriend - ripped from her college radio station while listening - free promo copies from her work place (in my day, stations and stores routinely gave these to employees when they cleaned house) I'm not saying it's perfectly okay but a lot of this was common practice before Gen Y - the digital revolution changed the scale and quality but the actions are not so different. (Of course I have not just cd but cassette tape mixes from friends cause I'm old  .) And this generation was born along with the technology and the information flow - they adapted to each other. Business models, marketing and distribution are still scrambling to catch up - and when they do - don't count on them having musicians' interests at heart. I think this may be the heart of David's crusade - to get creatives informed and involved as the new order takes shape and they're completely shut out. I'm a bit skeptical of assertions that any other generation wouldn't have responded the same way under similar circumstances. (And I should note, I possess no illegal music downloads - including of any music w/Adam vocals - but I was out of the loop for those key Napster years so it wasn't part of my experience) As for the argument that 'well, I could do it now, but I choose not to' - sometimes that's because of more disposable income (there is a wide disparity of wealth among young people - they aren't all rolling in money if you check natl poverty stats). But more important, they have a different mind set - not about right and wrong, but about what trading music means - an act of communal art sharing vs an act of theft. And David was trying to show another perspective on that. (Though I'm inclined to believe that, at 21, he would have collected music much in the same way she has if it had been an option - I think he was more taken aback mainly by the size of her library and most of all by her assertion that her generation will never buy albums (which I think is overstated but still, I see where she was going). I think her closing is a perhaps poorly worded suggestion that she and her kind are prepared to pay if a distribution method matches their habits - which is true more often than not re consumers of any age. I feel not very virtuous in this area. I save photos from the internet that are not mine and send them to friends to enjoy or laugh at. I found a documentary on You Tube recently that I've been eager to get a dvd of for years - but it's over 20 yrs old and out of print - how long do I wait before I see if it ever comes out on dvd before I download it and share with friends w/no financial compensation to brilliant filmmakers? Is it more honorable to wait for it to disappear forever? I don't know. I've shared poetry here with you - some from poets w/copyright still in effect. How many people who condemn this girl regularly download or share informal copies of ~something created with no compensation not only to artists but everyone involved in its creation/production? All I'm saying is I think there may be more gray areas in this issue than we sometimes see on first glance. And maybe Emily White is no Veruca Salt (from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - not the band  . ETA: But these conversations and articles ARE important. I had no idea about Spotify until I started reading relatively recent articles. In fact, I originally set up my acct when musicians on twitter started linking to playlists there. I've deleted it in trying to do my small part - and trying to buy more from artists home pages but iTunes is so damned convenient :-/ |
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juniemoon
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Post by juniemoon on Jun 24, 2012 0:11:18 GMT -5
Everything you wrote here, mika, was so interesting but I especially felt interested in this part:
I'm a bit skeptical of assertions that any other generation wouldn't have responded the same way under similar circumstances. (And I should note, I possess no illegal music downloads - including of any music w/Adam vocals - but I was out of the loop for those key Napster years so it wasn't part of my experience)I agree with this, that the issue should not be a generational divide. Back to my admittedly boring book experience ... the idea of getting something for nothing knows no age limits. Now that Amazon offers copies of books for sometimes as little as 1 cent(!), what incentive is there to buy a $20 book? I've had people boast to my face that they bought my book for $2. Yippee-skippy. Let's face it -- it's over for making any kind of compensation for doing creative work. Virtually every form of content has been disrupted, from books to music to movies and television. If there is no scarcity of reading material or music or poetry or photography or videos of cats falling off the sofa, why would anyone pay for it? The old business models were based on scarcity and control. If I want to read, I need to go buy a book (or someone, like my library, has to buy it). If I want music, I have to buy it. Now I can read all the day for free, go down the rabbit hole of great music and live performances all the day for free. Now ... to give this a twist, a little ... one assumption that we are making is that to be an artist, you have to make a living from your art. This belief is frequently used as a club with which to beat aspiring artists into giving up their art and getting a “real job.” In fact, making an income – from art or accounting or anything else – requires the skills of an entrepreneur or a business person. Making a living is a separate activity from one’s art. Adam was an artist for several years before he made a living from his music. He will, hopefully, continue to be an artist for many years to come, even if something awful happened and he stopped making an income from his music for a while. (As happened to Mel Torme and Tony Bennett.) The selling of Adam’s art began with his Idol journey. All artists need a break to get started, and Idol gave Adam a chance to succeed that he didn’t have before, something to make up for the fact that he had artistry but virtually no audience and no platform. If Idol were a piece of real estate it would be #1 in location, location, location. By making it on Idol Adam was able to bypass years of attempting to make a living in seedy nightclubs and third-rate venues. But the best location in the world isn’t enough without fans willing to pull out their wallets and buy your art. Adam has built a remarkable fan base who will pre-order everything he does and wait by the mailbox for it to arrive, wild with excitement. As for the rest of the world ... understanding, finding, and selling to a mass audience has little to do with art or passion and everything to do with marketing – which is where RCA and DMG come in. Almost all artists worry deeply about selling and Adam is certainly no exception. In interviews when Adam is asked about the main differences between his old life and his new life, he often says, “Money.” Though he does not seem materialistic, he does love expensive clothes and you can bet he gets a kick out of plunking down $1800 for a pair of boots. In a larger sense, Adam is certainly aware of the dire situation in today’s music industry. He knows he has to make money for a lot of people to keep doing what he loves. When we wonder if Adam will “make it,” we are really wondering if he has what it takes to make art and sell it at the same time. The true test of Adam as an artist is whether he freely expresses his personality through his music and communicates with our hearts and our dancing feet. Trespassing is already an artistic success. The true test of Adam as a business person is whether people will buy what he is selling. We wait and hope.  |
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nikki
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Post by nikki on Jun 24, 2012 11:47:52 GMT -5
Perhaps I'm missing something here, or not understanding. I read David as saying that it is the degree of the shift to moral relativism that is the defining difference between the generations. Not the behaviour itself, but its moral context. And it matters, because that shift from the absolutes that David is articulating allows for radically different answers to: is there a problem at all? What is it? How is it solved?
And Junie ;D to Shady ladies.
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LindaG23
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Post by LindaG23 on Jun 24, 2012 18:32:33 GMT -5
I was thinking tonight about ... Joy. Mulling the discussion of beauty, it occurred to me maybe it's less about gender, archetypes, mythos, etc. - than mindfulness and the ability to appreciate beauty in a no-ego way that lets in joy. I mean, we can intellectualize it, deconstruct it, debate its merits, but simply reveling in the experience is often lost. Taking pleasure in beauty in small, organic, everyday ways has often become quaint or a sign of eccentricity. So I will make my first post on this complex thread with a story that really happened to me and I know with confidence that readers here will appreciate its simple pleasure. Mika, your musing on joy brought the whole thing back. I was driving into the complex where I work a couple of weeks ago, inching forward to have my ID checked. I didn't mind though because directly in front of me was the most glorious sunrise in spectacular colors of orange, rose, and a shade of day-glow vermilion that is hard to describe and that I had never seen before; I was awed. As a drove up to the young guard with my window open to show him my ID I said, "Isn't that an amazing sunrise" and he looked up with a quizzical look on his face and back at me and said, "It's kind of pink."
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, so I just said, "Yes it is!" I may have already lost the shade of color from my memory, but the feeling of beauty lingers. Most importantly now, anytime I need a good shake of the head, what is this crazy world coming to, half smile moment I just think, "It's kind of pink". |
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irish1139
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Post by irish1139 on Jun 24, 2012 18:33:47 GMT -5
I just got back from vacation. I am so far behind, it is overwhelming. I was going through my voice mail messages when I got home, and my ex-daughter in-law called me from her car with all my granddaughters shouting "gramma, gramma, Adam Lambert is on the radio." The 11-year old is shouting "I love Adam Lambert, Gramma. He is so good." Brightened my spirits the first five minutes of walking in the door. Isn't it wonderful when people you love, happen to love Adam Lambert too. I have sent them all his songs and albums, and I feel wonderful that they appreciate and love my main man Adam. I am still feeling overwhelmed and not knowing what has happened this last week. I must catch up. |
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nikki
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Post by nikki on Jun 24, 2012 20:42:19 GMT -5
Yes, Irish, the joy. Here's the real joy for me. It'll be my turn soon, I hope  |
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juniemoon
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Post by juniemoon on Jun 24, 2012 22:16:29 GMT -5
That picture says it all. I think what we talked about all weekend was really the loss of community, the loss of the idea that we are all in this together ... it's every man for himself these days.
THAT is what Adam really offers, what draws people to him -- the ability to connect people in this crazy world.
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annala
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Post by annala on Jun 25, 2012 0:11:50 GMT -5
I loved reading NoAngel's post and seeing the pictures and hearing the interviews with Adam and all today at the Summerthing in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco.
I was in San Francisco today also, but doing something different. My granddaughter and her friend (both young teenagers) had wanted to attend the Gay Pride Parade, and so today we did it. I had thought about trying to combine it with Adam's thing, but seeing as that would have been nearly impossible, we did the parade instead (although I thought about Adam - so near and yet so far).
Well, our time at the Gay Pride Parade turned out to be something really special with the crowds, the participants, the diversity, the color, the singing and dancing, the love, and the fun. Lots of highlights, but one group in particular struck me - a small contingent of young Mormons carrying signs saying "We support Gay Marriage" and "We support LGBT Rights" - more power to them! My thought at the time - the times they are indeed a-changing.
While we wore our beads and waved our rainbow flags, for my granddaughter's friend, this was a very special day as she just "came out" last week, and she was so happy, waving, hugging, greeting people, and just having a great time. She told me she is thinking about starting an LGBT group in her high school next fall, and I hope she does. Today was her coming out celebration, and I was happy to be a part of it.
As for missing out on Adam today - well, I'll be seeing him in less than a month in SoCal - so I think how we spent this special Gay Pride Day was worth it.
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mika
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Post by mika on Jun 25, 2012 2:01:38 GMT -5
I loved reading NoAngel's post and seeing the pictures and hearing the interviews with Adam and all today at the Summerthing in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco. I was in San Francisco today also, but doing something different. My granddaughter and her friend (both young teenagers) had wanted to attend the Gay Pride Parade, and so today we did it. I had thought about trying to combine it with Adam's thing, but seeing as that would have been nearly impossible, we did the parade instead (although I thought about Adam - so near and yet so far). Well, our time at the Gay Pride Parade turned out to be something really special with the crowds, the participants, the diversity, the color, the singing and dancing, the love, and the fun. Lots of highlights, but one group in particular struck me - a small contingent of young Mormons carrying signs saying "We support Gay Marriage" and "We support LGBT Rights" - more power to them! My thought at the time - the times they are indeed a-changing. While we wore our beads and waved our rainbow flags, for my granddaughter's friend, this was a very special day as she just "came out" last week, and she was so happy, waving, hugging, greeting people, and just having a great time. She told me she is thinking about starting an LGBT group in her high school next fall, and I hope she does. Today was her coming out celebration, and I was happy to be a part of it. As for missing out on Adam today - well, I'll be seeing him in less than a month in SoCal - so I think how we spent this special Gay Pride Day was worth it. I think Adam would whole heartedly approve of how you spent your day! What a beautiful story, Annala - so wonderful of you to take the girls to Pride. The times are changing in a lot of ways. And so glad you will be seeing Adam soon.  |
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mika
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Post by mika on Jun 25, 2012 2:14:52 GMT -5
I may have already lost the shade of color from my memory, but the feeling of beauty lingers. Most importantly now, anytime I need a good shake of the head, what is this crazy world coming to, half smile moment I just think, "It's kind of pink". I loved this too and it made me smile. Well, maybe you got him to give those 'kinda pink' sunrises a second look after that |
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jun 25, 2012 2:20:08 GMT -5
LindaG... 'It's kinda pink' made me laugh. It reminded me of that Color Purple quote, “I think it pisses God off if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it. People think pleasing God is all God cares about. But any fool living in the world can see it always trying to please us back.” irish Get that girl a cell phone and give her all the radio stations numbers! ;D They won't be able to resist her enthusiasm. Sadly, all my attempts to convert my young relatives have all ended up with them laughing at me like I'm weirder that they already suspected. Niki and Junie, that picture is pure joy. To people who say 'eh, he's ok' about adam. It's like Linda G's story, why can't they seee?? annala, What a beautiful day you had! Thank you for sharing. I imagine it's a day your grandaughter's friend will never forget. Loved hearing about the young mormons too. Gives hope for the future. ETA: Looks up. Hey mika *waves* You type faster than I do. You weren't here when I started.
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jamie
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Post by jamie on Jun 25, 2012 2:44:53 GMT -5
Greetings! I love the coining of the fandom word 'bert'. It's a noun (we are 'berts'), but also an active verb. I'm berting, I want to bert, we are berting. To bert is to revel in the joy. To laugh, to be awestruck, to be moved, to be turned on, to be intrigued by Adam and his music. To be in the moment as observer and participant, as Adam is almost always present and in the moment. I love this too. I love how you described the word, it also reminded me of that video that went around here about that many uses of the word fuck. ( That day when twitterland was cramming in as many fucks in a tweet as possible was hilarious. How did that start? I forget.) I would love to see a fan video describing the many uses of the word bert using that guy's voice... Bert as a noun is used to describe a fan of Adam Lambert. Some are recognizable by their love of blue eyeshadow and generous use of glitter. More recently, they may also be spotted by the wearing of the color black and yellow. They may also adorn themselves in trespassing tape. Although if they were too much they may risk being called a 'Cray' rather than a bert. "Did you see that lady wearing a ball gown made of trespassing tape? She's cray."
The are many highly regarded entertains who are consider Berts.
It is not yet determined who the biggest bert among them are. Meatloaf is holding a steady lead but others include Brian May, Slash, Nancy Sinatra, Nina Garcia and Mia Farrow are still in the running. Paula Abdul is widely considered The Original Bert.
Often a bert can disguise themselves as normal members of society. If you suspect someone may be a bert but are uncertain, utter the Phrase 'Adam Lambert should have won American Idol'. A true bert will not be able to stop talking for at least 5 minutes before they realize their cover has been blown. Do not be alarmed. They are excited not hostile.
Bert can also be used as a verb.... ok I'm too lazy to keep going and I'm mixing Berts and Glambert meanings up I think.  If video were to happened a real writer would have to be called in obviously ;D |
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